Arguments and Counters

Those who insist fans of the Expanded Universe should ‘get over it’ and just enjoy the new stuff are loud and numerous. Besides the quotes page, here are a few response ideas:

Give it a chance, you haven’t seen it yet.

One can estimate predictions of future performance on past performance. Whatever the success Disney has with other franchises, if I haven’t liked any of their choices so far, its safe bet I won’t like the movie.
1. The immediately cancelled The Clone Wars, in mid production, while it was still popular and only had a season to go. Reasons: it was on a non Disney network. Ego won that round even over profit.

2. They immediately cancelled Dark Horse Comics license, with several very popular stories in mid production. At this point they had not yet cancelled the entire Expanded Universe. Reasons: they owned Marvel and wanted them in control. Ego won again.

3. They cancelled and relabeled the entire Expanded Universe and lied about it. Yes. I said LIED. They claimed it was too contradictory. Reason: Ego. Greed alone can’t account for this decision. This entire site is evidence to how few contradictions it had.

That’s three strikes right there. I have no reason to think their decisions will improve.

They are using George Lucas for consultation and his basic scripts.

Nope. They were supposed to but threw them out.

No one would understand a story based on the Expanded Universe if they hadn’t read it and knew the characters.

No one knew who Vader was the first time he appeared in A New Hope in 1977 either. All they got was an opening scroll saying this is the bad guy, this is the good guy and this is why they are fighting. The prequels were the same. Every movie had gaps between it and the next, and all you got as filler was the short scroll.

No one wants to a story based on books where they already know what happens.

The last book Crucible ends right about where the actors actual ages is. You could put the story there.

What’s more, plenty of popular books are turned into movies all the time. Harry Potter. The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. Lord of the Rings. The Hunger Games…I could go on. As an aside I’ll point out the first new Narnia movie did great…and it was largely complete when Disney bought the company. The following 2 were of diminishing popularity AFTER Disney bought it and kept altering the script away from the books.

George Lucas himself didn’t care or think of it as Canon.

There are plenty of quotes to suggest this was not true. It wasn’t part of ‘his’ story but he contributed.

  • He consulted with James Luceno when he was writing Darth Plagueis to make sure it told the story he wanted told. He had him report directly to head guy Hoffman instead of the usual editorial staff.
  • The Dark Horse comics writers sent him a checklist of options to  understand the Jedi better. He told them what the Jedi/Sith could and could not do.
  • He was directly behind Shadows of the Empire, the underworld angle was his idea.
  • He was directly involved with The Force Unleashed project.
  • It was his decision in planning the New Jedi Order books to let them kill a main character and which one.
  • It was his decision that decided which of the 3 children of Han and Leia would be the hero of New Jedi Order, and which would die, based on what he thought was too similar to the Prequel story he was telling at the same time.
  • It was his decision to go ahead and retain Coruscant as the capital world in the prequels, as it had already been established in books.
  • It was his decision to take the comic book character Aayla Secura and add her into Attack of the Clones
  • He was the one who decided to hire Timothy Zahn on the continuation of the after Return of the Jedi era. Certain elements were denied as they would impact on stories that would be told in the prequels, including making Noghri the actual Sith (as Vader was Lord of the Sith) and C’baoth’s clone which would originally have been a clone of Obi-Wan.
  • He actually suggested Terry Brooks include Expanded Universe material such as from Tales of the Jedi in the novelization of the Phantom Menace.

The Canon was too complicated. The new one is simpler because it’s all equal. We are starting fresh so its easier to keep up with.

It’s already begun contradicting itself.

-A Lucasfilm representative confirmed to GameSpot that future game releases will also be canonical…This includes DICE’s Battlefront.
Star Wars: Battlefront Canon Is ‘Complicated’ is the title of the IGN article. It doesn’t have a campaign, therefore it’s limited in how it can be part of the story.

So instead they are writing a novel called Battlefront. And how is that not confusing?

-Sabine Wren as a Mandalorian. While most of the old expanded universe says anyone who is willing to adopt their creed can be a Mandalorian, The Clone Wars (which they claim is now canon and the rest, not) showed them as primarily blond, pale humans, with very few exceptions like Death Watch. Okay…Sabine is not blond apparently nor pale. She really doesn’t quite fit in either canon. She doesn’t act like a Mando of the EU (which is not canon in her universe) nor look like one in the Disney canon.

And then there are the movie issues that the Expanded Universe had explained but now they’ve tossed out the explanations:

– Palpatine says the Republic is 1000 years old in Attack of the Clones. Obi-Wan says the Jedi have served the Republic for 1000 generations (by definition a generation is about 30 years) in A New Hope.

– It took around 18 years (Luke’s lifetime) to complete the first Death Star but apparently only 2 or 3 for the second.

– Yoda. Obi-Wan claims Yoda was the Jedi Master that instructed him in The Empire Strikes Back. In the Phantom Menace you see it is Qui-Gon. You might guess from the prequel movies but nothing is said, The EU books are what point out that Yoda trained them ALL as youngsters.

The point here has nothing whether it was an enjoyable story or a dud. The point is they claimed they killed the EU for a single (more) consistent canon…and they are contradicting themselves within the first year.

The whole point of renaming the stories ‘Legends’ to avoid confusion is a lie, given that they are literally taking the same names and reusing them for different aspects.

  •  A movie based on stealing the Death Star plans. Not original, given it was already done by Kyle Katarn and told in both video game and novella. In addition, Rebels on Toprawa, including Bria Tharen (Han’s Ex Girlfriend) were involved. It’s been told from many angles.
  • Title of the movie to steal Death Star plans: Rogue One. Rogue One happens to be known in the EU as ‘Rogue Leader’ usually. So they are outright taking a call sign of one of the most popular storylines post Return of the Jedi.
  •  Marvel’s Shattered Empire: Post Return of the Jedi Rebel pilots deal with the aftermath of a splintered Empire….wait. Isn’t that the story of the X-Wing comics? It is.
  • Aftermath: the excerpt already shared involves the toppling of the Emperor’s statue and retaliation by the Imperial troops. Except that has already been there, done that, with pretty much the same reaction in the Expanded Universe. This time in the X-Wing novels.
  • Kylo Ren. apparent villain in the Force Awakens…that name sounds familiar. Oh, wait, it sounds like a relative of Kybo Ren, a pirate from the Droids cartoon!
  • Marvel comics and Han Solo’s wife. Whatever their intent, it’s doubtful that a dark skinned woman claiming to be his wife doesn’t spring from Dark Horse Comics Salla Zend, who in the Han Solo trilogy wanted to be his wife. Their attitude also bears resemblance.

 

It is well known that to get rid of  a habit you have to replace it with something else. In fact, many Christian holidays came about by replacing pagan ones, rather than stopping them. That is precisely what Disney is doing. Not just creating new canon. But literally taking the most popular famous aspects of the old and associating it with the new, in order to overwrite it. Not just write a new story, but overwrite the old ones in a way that people will be associating it with new stories rather than originals. It’s basically stealing the ideas out of the old expanded universe and intentionally confusing people. Legends is not meant to make it easier to tell it apart, but to diminish the importance of the original expanded universe.

 

No one is taking your books/comics/games

Legacy 2They aren’t finishing them either. If I bought either book, comic or game for the Force Unleashed or Republic Commando I had some hope they would finish it if demand was high enough. Jaden Korr’s books pretty well ended on a mystery. Who wants to buy or read a story they KNOW will never be finished? Too late. We already bought them. We plunked down money and used time in good faith we would get an ending.

Dawn of the Jedi and Legacy 2 by Dark Horse comics were wrapped up in a hurry, clearly ground work was laid for other stories they weren’t given time to finish. Invasion also went unfinished. While left aside by Dark Horse some time ago, the fact that it took a decade to finish Crimson Empire again suggests they would have gotten back to it if fans demanded it.Stories written for the Expanded Universe were rewritten even if they were originally part of a series. We can’t get the last Rebellion and Empire book because Disney hijacked it and made the author rewrite the finished story to fit their canon instead of ours. Sword of the Jedi was in progress, it had been announced after years of waiting at the conventions.

The total list of lost projects:

Jaden Korr and the secret of the Jedi clones. Starting with Crosscurrent and into Riptide, this book links a project by Grand Admiral Thrawn, with Jedi Clones and the One Sith revealed in the later Legacy comic book series. We never have the reveal of the purpose of the clones.

sword of the jediJaina Solo: the Sword of the Jedi novel trilogy was long awaited and actually announced at conventions before Disney axed it. Jaina Solo, Jag Fel and how they relate to the Fel dynasty of Imperial Knights of the Legacy comics lost it’s lead in with this. Read the Convention announcement here.

Dawn of the Jedi Comic Series: this comic book series and era was barely begun, an intriguing look into the origins of the Jedi.

Invasion Comic Series: this comic series was set during the New Jedi Order and left unfinished. However, Crimson Empire also was left unfinished for decades. They did finish it. Invasion did not get this chance.

Republic/Imperial Commandos novel series wrap up.  Fates unknown including Kal Skirata, Dar and company were left on a cliffhanger. This was stopped short when Karen Traviss and Lucas had irreconcilable differences about his sudden desire to alter the entire Mandalorean culture, which she’d already written, in The Clone Wars. but many of us wanted it finished: her way.

Vader captured by Kota and Starkiller

Vader captured by Kota and Starkiller in The Force Unleashed 2.
This story arc was not given an ending in any media.

The Force Unleashed II Video Game, Book, Comic Series: left off with Vader a prisoner and Fett in pursuit. This was a multimedia project that ended on a cliffhanger.

Republic Commando Video Game: Ends on a cliffhanger, planned sequel was never released, possibly the aforementioned clash with the novel tie ins had something to do with that.

1313 Video Game: project in mid production to allow users to play as a bounty hunter.

Battlefront 3 video game: was also in production. Not to be mistaken for the new Battlefront, which is just a reboot with the same name. It lacks many of the features announced for the original Battlefront 3 including a story, single person player options, opportunities to play in the prequel era and space combat.

The pre prequel era (The Old Republic) is still canon.

Nope. They have claimed that too is separate canon, apparently to divide and conquer. But it isn’t part of Disney canon because it’s too tied into the expanded universe. The video games grew out of Tales of the Jedi comics, which are also referenced in the post Return of the Jedi era. The comics based on Knights of the Old Republic have tie ins, including a cross series plot called ‘Vector’ where the talisman is chased from the KOTOR series, into the Rebel era with Vader and Luke, all the way up to the Legacy era of Cade Skywalker.

They are re canonizing some parts.

No, they are stealing some parts. They gave no credit to the makers of Quinlan Vos and Asaaj Ventress when they rewrote their story in a book. Not a peep. The whole bit in the samples of Aftermath about the reaction to the Emperor’s statue falling was already used in the X-Wing series of novels. No credit is given to the makers of that either. If you take it without credit, you aren’t giving a nod to or recanonizing. You are just taking. It isn’t even exhibiting common courtesy.

The movies and their novelizations are canon

Nope. The movie novelization included cut scenes and expanded scenes, as well as mentioning events in the Expanded Universe. They have been relegated Quasi Canon. This is in spite of the fact that Lucas directly talked to Terry Brooks and suggested incorporating the EU into The Phantom Menace, a trend that continued.

The novelizations are contradictory and prove the EU was. (The opposite of the above argument)

The novelizations of the Original Trilogy were rushed before script completion. They may not be stellar examples but they aren’t lies. Some are even outright typos. Who deletes a whole story from canon over a misspelled word?  Even the bit about Owen being Obi-Wan’s brother in the Return of the Jedi novel has an expanded universe explanation. Look in the Jedi Apprentice series and Lone Wolf.

They needed creative freedom they can’t get with the EU in place.

They aren’t using creativity they are using a formula. Even the characters in the new Rebels show aren’t ‘new’. Zeb is basically the concept art for McQuarrie’s Chewbacca. There has already been an action figure of Kanan released that also is exactly like that concept art. (And there were already action figures based on the concept art). Rei is an obvious rip off of Jaina Solo. Kylo Ren takes his name from Kybo Ren and his mask is a modified version of Revan. The Rebels TV show didn’t even give the movie premier its own music but instead used the Original Trilogies, not merely in places as a nod or foreshadowing but the whole thing.  Many shots are just right out of McQuarrie’s concepts, which would be okay for backgrounds as he was an expert background and tech artist. He was not an expert on people. That doesn’t stop them from using it that way anyway.

This is not creativity, its a formula to imply its connection to the Original Trilogy in marketing.  It’s not even subtle, it’s blatantly obvious.

Only the Movies make Money

Again, not true. Toys make money. They also kicked Droids/Ewoks out of the continuity, Star Wars Clone Wars micro series and the Ewok movies out. These factored into the DVD and VHS sales before them. They all had tie in products including action figures and more. The Ewok Movies also factor in as box office sales as it was released in theaters outside the US.
Action figures, vehicles and lego sets were based on the novels, games and comics. In some cases the action figures were even packaged with the comic. These action figures are priced high on the secondary market and include characters like Bastila Shan (KOTOR), Kyle Katarn, Mara Jade and more. Trading cards, miniatures sets for games, other miniature sets, Role Playing Games and more were based on them as well. There were radio dramas created tying into some of the comic books, and Dark Forces the video games.

The other Media don’t matter so they don’t need to give credit:

Ventress - nightsister and sith candidate

Ventress, from Star Wars Republic 52: The Face of War by Dark Horse comics

Legally no, ethically yes. Ethically Aayla, Quinlan Vos and Ventress all came out of the Expanded Universe.

Onderon, Dathomir and it’s witches, Teth, Maridun and other worlds used in The Clone Wars came straight out of the Expanded Universe.

The old canon was contradictory

This whole site is set up to prove how minimal the contradictions were.

1. Infinites, Most of the Tales comics and Lego were NEVER canon.

2. Many things were retconned or fixed by Lucas Licensing after the prequels. The date of the Clone Wars and the date of Anakin’s knighting were the main adjustments. There were minor adjustments to Boba Fett’s history. And The Clone Wars, TV Show, while altering things, was in the progress of being brought into the fold through things like the Essential Guide to Warfare and the Bounty Hunter Handbook. Claiming they were contradictory as an excuse doesn’t work: Disney did not give room for them to finish bringing it into alignment. They helped create a problem that otherwise would probably not by now exist.

They are using Ralph McQuarrie’s Art

So? I love McQuarrie’s art but he was a concept designer, not a storyteller. Dressing it up in eye candy does not make it a great story. Art compliments and helps tell the story. If you are focused on the art, not the characters and their adventures than there is no story. Also his expertise was not people, yet they are using organics and people from his art, even though he avoided detailing them. Look at the cover of Splinter of the Mind’s Eye. Mechanical and landscape was his specialty:
‘Initially he worked for a dentistry firm, drawing teeth and equipment before working as a technical illustrator for  as well as designing film posters and animating ‘s coverage of the  at the three-man company Reel Three.’ – from Wikiepedia

The Expanded Universe was the first to use the ‘Lasat’ species, which they stole for Zeb in Rebels. It did not originate in Rebels, but in the West End Game Roleplaying books. The artwork for Lothal was already used in the Art of the Star Wars Galaxy for Alderaan, which included stories by regular authors like Kevin J. Anderson and went on to inspire more novels of the Expanded Universe.

Ralph McQuarrie was a great artist and without him Star Wars may never have been made. However, using his artwork long after he is gone does not justify how its being used and why. They aren’t using him because he is a great artist. They are using him to legitimize themselves.

 

 

 

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